Scott karani with me today hi Scott so today yeah I will start by telling my audience who you are so you are the investigative journalist and also you are the author of best-selling books and I would like to mention one book and it is what doesn’t kill us because today the topic of our conversation will be about it and we will talk about Wim Hof method I think you’re one of the best person to talk about it because you are one of the first practitioner right yeah I mean you know I I met uh Wim in Poland actually uh you know in 2013 and I was one of one of the first people he trained uh ever and yeah it changed my life and the reason we’re talking now is because uh there are some issues with the Wim Hof method that we are going to get into yeah yeah I’m excited and it’s funny that it’s changed your life and you started this practice to a kind of uh I’m sorry kind of so that it’s wrong debunking is the word that yeah so yeah I was I’ve written a bunch of books about sort of charlatan gurus and like false spirituality and fraud and things like that over the years and when I met whim and you know this is one of the books called the enlightenment trap uh and when I met Wim I was investigating a group where someone died meditating on a Mountaintop in Arizona uh and they died of dehydration and I I heard of at whim and whim is like this crazy Health Guru who says that he can survive the Polish winter in his underwear and you know change his body and make himself so much stronger than you know any human should be able to and I I thought that was probably a lie uh and so I flew out I had a a um commission from Playboy magazine and uh and my idea was that I was going to show the world that he was a fraud the problem is is I tried his method and I ended up climbing up a mountain yeah ski hill in in um in in Poland I think you pronounce it yeah uh I climbed up that mountain it was very cold and I was like warm and I was like oh my God this is amazing it’s life-changing and I became whims like first real evangelist on the international stage right I was out there I was promoting him um you know I wrote this book that was in New York Times bestseller after my articles um after my articles came out the uh the sort of the the International Community started to embrace him uh he was on Joe Rogan he was on yes theory he was all these like really big channels and uh and he got a lot of credibility uh because of that and you know honestly the method works like for you know it cured an autoimmune illness for me I was able to climb up mountains I kind of uh Kilimanjaro with whim again in a bathing suit like it was a it’s been a really great ride um for sure yes so you said earlier that it changed your life how exactly yeah yeah as I as I was saying like my you know I had like I used to have a canker sores which are big mouth ulcers that were like you know like like this big on the inside of my mouth and it made it hard to talk and it was just a miserable thing I started doing the Wim Hof method and I stopped getting them um you know I could if I feel them starting I just need to do like a couple rounds of breathing every day and they go away um you know I think in general it’s made me a healthier person and it showed me that there are limits that I can push and and and sort of embrace the environmental changes uh and look understand how the environment changes my body and that whole process has been really really beneficial it has been awesome uh and uh and I stand by it I stand by all of that that stuff because the the cool thing about the Wim Hof method is there’s actually some pretty decent science behind it uh that shows that that you know it has benefits for anxiety it has benefits for autoimmune illnesses and and and and benefits for chronic various chronic illnesses and so um that’s all true I wouldn’t necessarily say it’s Unique to the Wim Hof method like you don’t need to be Wim Hof to to have those changes uh you know you know you could probably find it in yoga and other things but the cool thing about Wim Hof is that he’s actually studied it in laboratory conditions okay so as I understand you still use the method right yep just about every day I I I do the breath work and jump into an ice bath okay okay great and you are super fascinated about this all method but something changed what changed exactly yeah I I think it’s sort of like whim got too famous in a way like so whim and I was very clear about this in my articles and my books that whim might be the like the prophet who opens the door to these practices and and and can get people really excited about them but he’s also a Madman who’s like bananas crazy and uh and is not a responsible human being really at all and and people have been following him as if he’s an infallible Guru as if he he is always smarter than the science and and as I think Wim gets more and more popular he becomes more and more certain of him of himself and he’s becoming more like the gurus that I was writing about when I was first debunking the Wim Hof method uh oh sorry when I first debunking like Cults around the world and and it’s it’s it’s a strange position for me to be in because as whim has gotten um more popular I I I have been less and less impressed with his own message uh and in addition because he’s sort of crazy um he he never has understood the biology of what’s going on with cold exposure and breath work like he just talks sort of Madness into the micro your phone and and it’s always been our role as journalists to sort of correct him but he’s also teaching a dangerous combination of hyperventilation in water that is likely to make someone pass out and he has tons of videos about that on his on his own channels and on like when he goes on podcasts and you know sort of all over the world and for people who are only casually interested in the Wim Hof method they see a video somewhere and like hey cool I could also perform these great feats and since the Wim Hof method is cold exposure and breath work people naturally assume that you should combine those and do them at the same time and and when they do people pass out in the water and they drown and so when we was when I was first writing what doesn’t kill us we knew about two or three people who had died doing this and there’s sort of warnings in my book that hey this is bad and I figured that women would stop teaching it that way uh when when you know after I talked to him after he sort of like saw the legal threats that were coming and uh and I I guess as just sort of an author I just sort of stopped paying real close attention to whim and exactly what he was teaching uh until um you know I guess earlier this year when I started looking into drownings and I found that about 16 between 16 and 18 people have drowned doing the Wim Hof method in water and whim continues to teach these practices so when I I have watched your video about Wim Hof this Wim Hof gate I was really shocked that he was saying something like that because when I was learning this practice this method one of the first thing that I’m not sure if I watched the Wim Hof video or was it just some instructor video they specifically told to not do it under any circumstances different than lying down or sitting so I was quite shocked and yes a swim off still saying that I you know honestly I don’t know uh it’s it’s it’s he’s been less on social media since my videos had started coming out I will say that since I started banging on this drum there’s a lot more warnings on his website and they’re removing videos that show Wim Hof hyperventilating in water uh off of their official channels but I don’t think he’s ever stopped and I don’t think he’s ever gonna change on this because whim is I mean he’s crazy he’s a madman and he just does his his breath work practice uh however he wants to do it and and and no one can tell whim don’t do something uh he just you know repeatedly puts himself in danger and puts other people in danger as well I mean one classic example that I put in my video um is the the the notorious enema incident right so just to illustrate how crazy whim is in 2008 after he hadn’t seen his kids for 10 years because he abandoned them for to shack up with another lady he he he’s he said he was going to meet one of his kids by a in a uh in a park in Amsterdam called vondel Park and he arrives there early and and his son is still not there and so he swims out into the middle of the fountain and gives himself an enema and an enema for you know someone who’s not fluent in English is when you sit on a you you put a hose up your butt and you flood it with water and so he sat on a fountain spigot with you know and and let the fountain shoot up his butt to you know clean out as he says get the [ __ ] out and he did this and the water actually cut through all of his intestines it it basically killed him and he swims to the side of the pond with blood and poop coming out of his butt and then his his son is there and he said the first thing he says to his son in 10 years is take me to the hospital I’m dying and the reason why this story I mean a it’s a crazy story like you know it’s it’s not a normal thing to do to go give yourself a fountain enema um but the reason why this story is as important is it shows you how careless whim can be with his own life and his own social propriety and his own example and and to think that people would look at a social media post that he does or or an appearance on a goop lab or in the BBC where he’s frequently portrayed the the fact that he would repeat these incidents over again it’s very it’s it’s insane that anyone would follow his example but they do follow his example because I think the media and and in a way I’m responsible for this because I helped launch him into into Fame

the media ignores the bad sides of Wim Hof they ignore the crazy stuff and they’re just promoting the guru they’re just promoting this side of him which is indestructible and the message is you can be indestructible do too if you follow whim’s example yeah before I’ve heard this crazy story I have heard uh Wim Hof on the Q a when somebody asked him why he got this car on his belly and he told that it was his Habit to go there and go to this fund and it was pleasurable but then they changed the the power of it and that’s why it happened so it’s quite a different story like he it’s just a mistake it’s not like he’s crazy from from this perspective well it’s still crazy like like yeah I the story that is that they changed the spigot and it was a it was a more powerful spigot and he didn’t know how dangerous it was um that this could happen so that’s part of the story but he also says he’s done it like a hundred times and who gives themselves an enema in a public Fountain a hundred times a first first point even if you know it’s safe who does that 100 times because that’s what that’s what his story is the second part of this is well is the timing of the incident okay so he had a literally after his ex-wife died so olayahoff commits suicide she jumps out of a window and then Wim Hof is tasked with taking care of his children um and then after two years of taking care of children he’s like I can’t be a dad anymore I’m so bad at it and he abandons them in a squat house a squad house is like an abandoned house with no heating no supplies no anything and he he just Shacks up with another woman in another town um after 10 years after that relationship is coming to an end he says I’m going to meet my son who I haven’t seen in 10 years and that is the moment where he hurts himself right that’s weird right that’s not a coincidence that’s that sounds to me like it’s somebody who is trying to show how UPS how sad they are that they were they were so bad that they are now hurting themselves uh that to me is my interpretation and when I interviewed whim um about it and I have a recording of this on my video which is on my YouTube channel um you can actually hear him saying yeah maybe I thought I wanted to kill myself so there is something more here than just you know hahaha I made a mistake and and almost killed myself on a fountains figure which is also bananas yeah yeah that’s for sure so you mentioned that media ignored bad stuff about Wim Hof just to make him some kind of a guru but have you done have you haven’t you done the same with your book at first yeah I would say that that’s a major theme in what doesn’t kill us is that I mean in my defense I do mention his Madness I call him a prophet a madman and I show how he almost got me and other people killed on Kilimanjaro so the message of his erraticness is in what doesn’t kill us but it is not strong enough like I took out the fountain story I took out the abandoning the kids story I minimized his drunkenness in the book at the advice of my editor and incidentally my editor is the person who wrote his autobiography the Wim Hof method so his name is Mark Weinstein Wim of course doesn’t write because he’s not a writer um but we thought at the time look we’re trying to get the idea across that ice bathing and breath work is good for you so if you present the leader as an insane guy who almost impales himself on a water spout that is not going to engender um uh good feelings from the reader and so we took it out and and and I objected to this I said that I wanted to keep it in my editor said no we should take it out we had a conversation and eventually I agreed okay we’ll remove it I think that was a bad call you know in retrospect now it’s been the book’s been out for you know six years I guess um I there’s so little media out there that that even went as far as I did in my my revised version of what doesn’t kill us like everyone says Wim Hof is amazing everyone says oh my God he’s crazy in such a good way and and you should be crazy you know Embrace a little crazy too and that is the that is the wrong message I think there’s a real place for truth which is one reason why I’m being so public right now uh to the world because as Wim gets more and more famous as he gets his millions of followers on his platform which is just enormous now uh there is more and more risk of people getting the wrong message and following his example have I heard correctly that you mentioned hiding his drinking problem yeah so I mean if you talk to anybody over at the Wim Hof method and you you talk about alcoholism in his past which is pretty apparent that he was an alcoholic um they will tell you that he was never an alcoholic and you should never say that and if you do say that well they will sue you this is something that happens from inner fire which is the organization now run by his children um and they are very protective over that idea because whim is presented as a health and fitness hero right he’s a smoker right they don’t he’s a breath worker and that seems wrong and like so these contradictions they try to clean up his image repeatedly and and by doing that you’re you’re you only present the good side you only present this this this crafted image and not reality yeah so that’s quite a shock for me and what else doesn’t don’t people know about the Wim Hof himself hmm

there are some things that I can’t quite talk about because I have to verify them still but I would say that people should look in a little closer to the story of olaya Hoff his wife who committed suicide in 1995. the story that Wim Hof presents repeatedly is that when she died he was in grief and that he he had to go to the ice water to manage his grief and if he’d only taught her how to use ice water she wouldn’t have died and this is like a foundational story of the Wim Hof method I think that story is much more complex

my phone was ringing um I think that story is much more complex than than it is and although I have information that I’m not going to share here on this podcast I will say there’s a Daily Mail interview that Wim Hof did where he talks about olaya almost slitting anum’s throat with a knife uh animus is his son and she talked and he alludes to a lot of abuse in that relationship uh and I think there’s a lot more to dig into uh in that vein but but you know I can’t go into what I what I’ve found so far okay okay I understand so the the things that you’ve talked so far about they are 100 verified

uh uh the things that I have talked about right now are all very as far as I know they all happened right I mean I wasn’t present at the at the fountain incident like I wasn’t spying on him with binoculars I didn’t have a camera going on him so you know it’s a he said he said uh situation so I’m interpreting the facts to the best of my ability um the deaths that I have looked at um are all in 16 deaths again I wasn’t present at those events I’m taking people’s statements and doing the best I have with the information so um I don’t know if anything’s gonna hold up in in court if a lot since there is a lawsuit that’s going on I don’t know how the Court’s gonna rule I am presenting the information as best I know it okay okay I understand so what many people love about the Wim Hof method is the fact that it’s completely free you can just go outside to the nature and do it you can just find a cold water and do it so is it a business or just a natural method yeah that’s a good point I actually love the fact that that it’s mostly free like if you if you learn the method and you can learn the breath work online very easily you can you know you can learn the cold exposure you can just jump into water all that’s great and all of that is free there are also courses that you can buy on the website uh and there’s instructor trainings that you can get and I don’t think the prices are necessarily terrible like you know there was a 99 course that had some questionable material but 99 isn’t so insane there’s also 400 and I think 500 courses as well I think we’re getting into like a little extra but who am I to say that someone can’t charge what they want for their their stuff I will say that the marketing is intense it is deceptive in my in my mind and I think that that a common allegation is that it’s all about the money and the way the reason why that is a is a statement that I can make is because the way it’s run and it’s run by Anum Hoff who’s Wim Hof’s son uh they act very culty they act in a way that is that is um foreign

[Music] the uh the responsibility yeah their responsibility they’re minimizing his negative aspects they’re they’re they’re they’re they’re not presenting a a full picture and I don’t believe they really have a grasp on the physiology of the things that they talk about uh I I it it it feels almost like a I don’t know like an MLM sort of sort of like a Ponzi scheme in a way I don’t think it is a Ponzi scheme but it’s very like internet marketing forward uh they have all these click funnels involved and and it’s you know on one hand I don’t really mind that he runs a business of course you can make money doing the things the the things that you do on the other hand there’s a lot of command and control and a lot of group think in those organizations where they sort of perpetuate a lie and I do not like that so they cooperate with some universities and they research this method so why are you saying that they are not sure about the physiology of it oh I don’t think the people inside the method the people in the leadership or even and especially whim himself understand what those scientific papers say I think that these scientists and for instance Auto music who’s a a per one if you go into Wim Hof’s Instagram page right now the the pinned photo on the top is Auto music putting Wim Hof in an MRI in Wayne State University so and and he did a paper talking about how the Wim Hof method is very similar to the you know the placebo effect and and maybe helps disclose some of the underlying mechanisms of the placebo effect beside the paper is pretty good I’ve read the paper I know Auto music I’ve talked to him and yet when you actually talk to Auto music he’s like yeah they’re completely misusing my work it’s not really about the Wim Hof method it’s about any Mind Body um method that you use I happen to talk to Wim off and I happen to do this and Otto says to me repeatedly and you can you have them on video you’re talking he’s saying that he does not want to be involved with the Wim Hof method or or that organization anymore because it’s all about the money so they make it the benefits and everything bigger than it’s actually is right now proven yeah I would say in general and my feeling on the scientific papers out there are that they’re promising like there is something to the memo of method I’ve experienced it but there’s also objective data to it and when you look at that data it’s like anywhere from like a c plus scientist science paper to like a B plus science paper there’s no a plus science paper there’s like pretty good and pretty good is okay for me to try something right like pretty good is okay but it’s not okay to be like you’re going to win the Nobel Prize which is what Wim always wants to do he’s always talks about who’s going to win the Nobel Prize and he’s winning the win so he goes beyond the science pretty far in a way that um you know when making promises to your audience that you can cure cancer or cure AIDS or something like that and you don’t actually you can’t actually do that I think that’s that’s dangerous and he doesn’t say it all the time that’s the other funny thing sometimes he says it can cure AIDS and cancer and sometimes he doesn’t oh yeah that that also shows his Madness right yes yeah and it’s it’s a hard position for me to be in because I actually really like whim like as a person I think he’s great I think he’s done a lot for the world I think many many many people have benefited from it so like I’m not out here trying to cancel whim I’m not trying to be like you’re the worst person in the world it’s the thing is that once it’s sort of like with Spider-Man with great power comes great responsibility and he has great he is increasingly greater and greater power and is increasingly abdicating responsibility and and that’s sort of that fundamental problem and in addition his the people who follow him they fall into two camps people are just like want to try some stuff learn some science and are pretty rational about what they’re doing and then there’s another group of people who are like Wim Hof can do no wrong and I love whim because he saved my life and he saved millions of other people’s lives and anyone who says anything wrong about him is Judas that’s that’s cult thinking that’s like like look at the comments on any of my YouTube videos these days and you you will see that there are a lot of people in The Cult of Wim Hof and and at any time you give your own agency over to someone else it’s dangerous at the beginning it’s hard to distinguish between positive energetic person and Madness and I think and I also perceive winkoff as somebody positive that’s uh always positive happy always smile but yeah when I’ve heard your your materials your content yeah I’ve changed my mind yeah and I think that’s one of the one of the things now I can’t I’m not a psychiatrist and I can’t diagnose somebody but I will say from my lay perspective he is a little bit manic depressive right he has these highs and he has these lows and and when everyone loves manic people if you meet if you see Robin Williams on a on a a YouTube video like this guy is great he’s got so much energy and he’s wacky and I love him and then you miss the Robin Williams that eventually committed suicide because he was so depressed right we don’t like the depressives and what we present for is all of the best side all of the time it’s like with anyone’s Instagram you don’t show the bad side ever right like I don’t post I’m so depressed today my writing isn’t going well like I don’t do that no one does that right instead you post the good stuff and and when whims good stuff his goods are higher and his lows are lower than other people I’ve seen him very very angry in the past I’ve seen him very very depressed uh and those are sides of his personality as well and for him to say that his method cures depression and cures anxiety well it hasn’t for him so why would it cure it for everyone else it’s a tool that you might use that might help in some cases but it’s not a Panacea that’s a good point so the idea came to my mind that maybe Wim coffee being is being accused by by the whole organization have it uh have it flow through your mind oh of course I mean you know the if you if you look at animhoff who is the only owner of the Wim Hof method so Wim according to corporate records has no ownership stake in the business of the Wim Hof method the the business has about 18 million dollars in assets that’s about 17 million million euro um he uh according to all of the records that are that are filed his son animhoff owns the trademark owns the corporate assets owns everything and Wim owns nothing uh that’s very clear now women will sometimes tell you I have an agreement with aim to share the assets but as I understand the law in the Netherlands you actually have to register that with the government and it is not registered so something is going on there in addition a m Hoff repeatedly says on podcasts and other places that he does not practice the method and that he he only got to together with his father in 2008 after he saw that it could make a lot of money so there’s it’s clear that there’s a disconnect between the actual leadership and Wim Hof on the other side I don’t think Wim Hof can run a business like I don’t think whim has a business mind so you know he does need somebody in there managing his Affairs uh I just don’t think the current leadership has proven that they have uh what it takes to do that in a responsible manner can anybody see the conversation with this Adam

yeah it’s linked to in in the in my video it was something I was on the yogi Show podcast uh that came out in 2000 and I want to say 20 2020 um and it’s like an hour-long conversation with aim there’s another one that came out like only about six months ago also with a M also very telling um and you know there’s a link to it in my video oh because for me it’s quite shocking to to understand that somebody is publicly admitting that he got connected with his father for money yeah but you know if you think about it whim a M’s mother committed suicide and he blamed Wim for her death and then a whim abandoned him for 10 years I mean that is a messed up family Dynamic like that is crazy whim is one of the worst fathers in the world and then after 10 years when when comes back to him he’s like super in debt he’s got thirty thousand dollars of divorce debt and he says Anum can you help me and ainum who is um many like enum has like a business sense to him so he could form a business um he says sure but a M’s personality is also like not many people like Anum like if you if you go around to the world and you talk to people who’ve done business with Aina most of them come back and say that he’s um quite mean angry and money grubbing for instance if you had known Wim for years you know your childhood friends with him ain’t him and you say hey whim can we hang out Aina will probably write to you inter intercept the emails and then say you can hang out with my dad for one hour for 1500 Euro like that’s the [ __ ] that he does like if you if you if you you should try this you should you should write to Inner Fire and you should say hey I’d like to interview Wim from my podcast uh and then see if they come back and say well whim’s normal hourly rate is fifty thousand dollars because that’s usually what they do uh and you know they will you know he intercedes and he kicks people out of of whim’s life he isolates whim and then probably controls him in a number of ways um not only owning his house but also controlling any money that that whim makes that’s absolutely crazy and you know in Poland there’s no talk about any of that at all because you act in English media you you publish your videos in English and in Polish there’s zero information about it so so yeah you have to translate me into polish I know my book is in Polish and I I I it’s quite popular in Poland um and I think I have wait let me see is this polish yeah exactly that’s funny yeah there we are there’s the Polish version right there um and uh but I need to update it because I need to include more recent information about what’s going on in the in the business and I’ll probably release an update in the next uh year uh in in America okay will the name remain the same I would assume so I mean it’s the problem the weird place that I’m in is that I still love the method I’m still part of that that icy breathing you know Miracle working stuff I just think it has become a cult I think it has become too much about whim’s personality and not enough about uh the actual practices and I think that what honestly what we need to do is get rid of the idea of Wim Hof method and we need to call it the huffing and Puffin and icy method like something else uh because I I think it by calling it The Wim Hof method you sort of say that everything that Wim Hof does is the method right and and and and then then you’ve embraced his personality and his Madness at the core of of what what it’s about so so it’s so intertwined that that he has actually additional liability um because of this he has additional responsibility to actually stick to the tenants that he wrote uh or that he that he promotes and when he goes off script people are like oh well the Wim Hof method is what Wim Hof does I was even wondering once if Wim Hof is his actual actual name because it’s so good for marketing right going off it’s good for international etc for example my name oh it wouldn’t make sense to create my name method yeah yeah your name is hard on the international scale yeah so the question is winkoff is his original name yeah yeah his name is okay okay um Eric is his middle name Wim Eric Hoff oh okay I would like to talk right now about the sneska conspiracy because it’s connected with Polish a Poland and I I have seen your video about it so can you tell what happened there so in um I I think it was 2018 it was a little while ago um that this happened where they had 20 38 38 Wim Hof method instructors in training so to become a Wim Hof method instructor you pay a bunch of money and then you do a little bit of breathing exercises you learn a little bit of how to Market and then they do like a big you know event with you and at that point they were climbing up shaneshka which is what a lot of people have done doing the Wim Hof method which is a ski slope not incredibly dangerous not very technical you know it’s a ski slope uh and but the weather report was pretty bad that day and they went up the the slope and they didn’t have all of the right equipment and they got caught uh between like a a house that’s halfway up it has like Warmness and then on the top which had the observatory where there’s other you know indoor space and they got caught in an ice storm and a lot of people you know they’re all shirtless right they’re walking up this mountain and all of a sudden the temperature drops to like nothing and they’re being hit with like icy sleet it’s a bad scene and some people start getting hypothermic so their body temperature drops really low uh they they managed to to bring almost like everyone down the mountain to that sort of Midway safe house and three people have serious enough hypothermia that they need to be rescued by you know uh the Polish search and rescue and no one dies which is great right like awesome we had an issue and we sorted out and there weren’t any major consequences people could have died but they didn’t so good the and and so it would but it still was sort of a flashy potential story and I’m Hoff told everybody who was on that thing never to talk to the media and that the media did get wind of it that they should say they should tell the press that it was a different group all together and and so there’s this other icy breathy guy and I’m gonna totally butcher his name um in Poland yeah um

I want to invite him to the podcast as well yeah nice guy right and he’s also doing an icy breathing Mountain thing and and um and but his thing is going to happen in three days time from when this event happened and then Anum has tells all of the press you should go you should go talk to him because he was the one who had that big disaster on the mountain it wasn’t us at all so he’s lying he’s straight up lying to the Press he’s instructing people to lie and then when I wrote to enum and I was like hey did something happen on the mountain he was like no no no it was this other dude all along never ever blame the Wim Hof method for anything going wrong and I have all these texts from Anum basically straight up lying and I find that so disingenuous like I don’t necessarily think the event was that bad like I think the event was concerning but everything worked out and then you you know you retool your safety protocols and you don’t have it happen again no problem no one’s going to be upset the issue is when you lie you are a liar and you realize that this person is lying about everything

yes yes and uh oh but you know what you should do I never actually got the search and rescue report from polish search and rescue I tried I emailed them I put my email into Google translate and I said hey can you tell me about this and they’re they never wrote back you can because you know polish and you should go and call them up and see if you can get the actual records and I would love to see those yeah that might be a good idea yeah and I would like to mention that all the proofs that you are talking about they are in your materials right on your channel yeah on my channel Scott Carney I think it’s SG Carney on YouTube just just Googled Scott Carney and it’ll show right up um and yeah and you can see all of my work you know it’s all very well documented it’s all very fact checked I had an independent fact Checker look at it and check my work I had lawyers look at it like the information I present is fact um except where I’m making an opinion if I’m making an opinion it’s an opinion um but all of the events are are totally fact checked yeah I will link I will leave a link down below of course to your channel and uh that’s crazy that media didn’t even check that the the adventure of our polish guy Machi sushka will be in three days and they started uh spreading the message that’s crazy yeah it’s crazy and he was trying to raise um money for a sick kid right it was a charity Expedition with 300 people like a whole it’s a whole different thing and aim like has sent all these news cameras to his door and it sort of hurt his reputation uh in in Poland because he’s like I don’t even know what this is about and it makes him look like he’s a liar and it was all inner fire all along yeah for sure I will I will I would like to talk with him about it so I will invite him and right now I would like to also ask you about the lawsuit what is it about exactly so uh you know I was always worried that whim would get sued or someone would die on an expedition and I was sort of looking for that to actually occur because whim does dangerous things and uh it was funny I was finished doing my video about the deaths that I’d found that that you know people have drowned doing the Wim Hof method and I’d found at that point 13 or 12 12 or 13 I think when I started doing that at the end of like almost getting ready to publish the video I was like I wonder if anyone sued Wim and I googled Wim Hof lawsuit like something very simple just to be sure that I was right that no one had sued him and there was this case in California in Long Beach California where a girl named Madeline Rose Metzger was 17 years old uh uh uh hung out with her dad in the morning and then eight hours later her dad finds her face down in a pool drowned and which was you know apparently she didn’t normally use the pool but she was a very good swimmer they make a lot of um you know cases that she was a Wim Hof method practitioner and had been hyperventilating in the water and drowned and and I think the case is medium I don’t think it’s great because there’s a lot of questions about what happened in that eight hour period that that caused her to drown uh but the father thinks that it was she was doing the Wim Hof method in the water and he has reason to believe that and he’s suing Wim Hof and inner fire for 67 million dollars in in this in this uh California court system which is a lot of money right um when I look at the case I think it’s not amazing I don’t think it’s very like I don’t think it’s very well argued or articulated but I do think that they are pointing at the right events right there because there’s other people I’ve spoken to and other family members of people who’ve died who are like the you know like out of a guy named Andrew encinas it was like only about 10 miles away from where Madeline Rose Metzger died he was like hey guys I’m gonna go do Wim Hof method in the pool and they were like cool see you later and then like 10 minutes later he was dead it’s like a much clearer connection between someone doing the Wim Hof method in water and death and there’s I mean I know of probably eight cases that are sort of very similar to that um the the the the the case that’s going through California I do not know how it’s going to shake out um it could go a lot I mean he’s a personal injury lawyer which is you know in America personal injury where lawyers are a little bit made fun of in the United States um but I do think they’re pointing at a real issue with the Wim Hof method and I will say that um Wim Hof has responded in court so the first thing you try to do in a lawsuit is you try to get out of the lawsuit before anything arguing happens right because they’re very expensive you don’t want to be involved so Wim Hof submitted a response to the California Court which said I I have no I have no relationship to anyone in California anyone called a Wim Hof method instructor I do not know them they’re not they’re not they’re I have no relationship with them I’ve never sold a product in California all of those are lies like they’re just straight up lies so what we have actually is a is a poorly argued legal case on the the complaint and we have a really bad defense from Wim Hof so it’s like a bad lawyer versus a bad lawyer and I do not know how it’s going to shake out yes but uh how how many deaths are so far because of this problem of breathing in the swimming pool so according to my I’m going to actually check my list because I I keep on updating it um right now we have 17 deaths that I have Associated directly with the Wim Hof method and the way I’ve gotten I’ve collected this is very important to understand it’s from press reports that say Wim Hof method and drowning like like some reporter has gone in and checked this and said okay this is Wim Hof method and drowning um and or it’s like a family member has contacted me and they’ve said okay this is exactly what’s happening so those are the two ways that you get your name on my list and I will note that of these cases of the 17 cases one two three four five six seven eight nine ten of them are in the United States this is what I can tell you by looking at my list of 17 dead people is that my my sample is horribly skewed there’s no doubt in my mind that this is only a fraction of the actual number of deaths that are out there because what are the chances that are Americans are uniquely misunderstanding Wim Hof right what is what are the Wim Hof is popular everywhere I mean maybe maybe Americans are particularly dumb I don’t think so I think that that what I’m actually looking at is is just a very skewed sample of the total number of deaths because it’s very hard to end up on my list I in addition I have another 11 incidents of people who are likely deaths with the Wim Hof method or almost died and were rescued and and those people all have the same statement hey I was doing the Wim Hof method in water and I almost died so that we actually have them saying what they were doing from my perspective 17 seems very little when you compare it to the to the scale that winkoff operates on because people die even running so it’s normal that people will die with such a big audience I guess right but that’s that’s sort of the Crux here isn’t it is that if Wim Hof none of these people had to die right it was a thing that that they got their idea from watching Wim Hof to go do this and it wasn’t like it wasn’t like um a drug where you where a drug and honestly if a drug goes out to a million people and 17 die that’s higher than the murder rate in America so and murder is bad so the the rates are are uh you know how many people need to die before we think it’s concerning uh I would say one death is a concerning you know two deaths is concerning is is at what point do we Ring the Alarm Bells uh that this is out there and also realize that my there could be a hundred people dead could be 200 people dead I don’t know what the actual number is uh and that’s sort of a you know it’s clearly something that Wim Hof needs to Tamp down on the second part of the the response to that is you know Wim Hof has like a uh six million followers roughly in all social media something about six million followers um and people say look but he’s he’s made so he’s helped so many people well I would love to know how many people he’s helped like like like we assume it’s Millions but but is there any data what is the denominator of this fraction actually we don’t know because no one has Quantified that so so we’re you’re basically making up a number you’re making up your denominator but we know what the numerator is oh yeah yeah so right now you spread this message the whole all the things that we’ve talked about you spread them online and what is your goal in doing that do you have some goal in it yeah I mean I I think I feel a responsibility um that’s this is the biggest thing is that I was very responsible in giving Wim Hof credibility in the world and I feel like I put my reputation on the line for him and now that it’s clear that he’s not abiding by the principles that that you know that made me embrace him and the first time I have to correct the record so that for me is the most important thing here I do not want I I don’t want myself to be implicated in this but I also don’t want people to continue dying like I I sort of don’t want the emails from the mother whose son just died anymore that would be great if that stopped and the way you stopped that is by stopping this sort of Madness to be projected um other goals that might come out of this uh uh I don’t know I mean it’s about raising awareness I mean the thing I was supposed to be doing is I have a book on napping that I was writing and I really wanted to finish my napping book and I have spent six months writing about Wim Hof drowning I’m a little [ __ ] tired of talking about Wim Hof drowning but every time I try to turn away from it more information comes in and I feel like I have to respond um at some point I will be free of Wim Hof uh I just don’t know when that will be okay some people accuse you of doing it for views what would you and money they also think I’m getting rich off of this and for those people I have to say they might know something about social media that I don’t know because I spent ten thousand dollars putting this video together and my YouTube channel uh has made three hundred dollars no no I think I’m am I 300 I think I have four made four hundred dollars uh in total on this so I am a terrible businessman if I’m doing this for the money uh my video is like 37 000 views or something like that like I’ve alienated like half of my audience like half of my audience is like I love whim no matter what and I am burning your book I get that message at least once a week now maybe two or three times a week like no this is the stupidest thing I would I could ever do if it was in it for the money so right now imagine that interface inner fire wants to do good and they they listen to you and they let you help them do some changes in their structure and their message what would you like them to do exactly yeah that’s a super good question and it’s so hard um uh because the problem isn’t just putting warnings on videos because there are tons of warnings out there like if you go on to the the Wim Hof channels there’s warnings everywhere saying don’t do this in water uh so so that’s not the issue the issue is it actually has to do with branding it’s like how Wim Hof’s message gets out there is he keeps on presenting this false image of hyperventilating and water is a good idea like he’s showing all these Guinness Book of World Records if you go on to like yes Theory and these other videos they show that he’s like has the the world record for swimming underwater with his breathing method like all of that needs to change at the root and I think they need to to acknowledge that Wim Hof is crazy like they need to stop presenting him as an infallible Guru and say no he’s a madman and a prophet and maybe there’s a way that you can take the inspiration from whim but not follow his example and I think it’s actually going to be very hard to do that because they need to find in themselves that they need to be honest like they need to be honest about who they are that they’re representing uh and you know I don’t think their current leadership is open to that I think that they want to protect his image I think they want to make him breath work Jesus I don’t think they want to make him uh just another you know inspiring person on the internet they want more out of that and I don’t think that’s the way I think that’s dishonest to whim I think it it makes him um uh uh you know it puts too much pressure on whim uh it it makes him you know if someone was always telling you you’re a superhero but you can’t actually perform Miracles that’s going to be a problem and I think that we need to like fundamentally reconsider who Wim Hoff is I also think that animhoff is not a good CEO I think you need a different CEO um I don’t know who but someone good you know find someone good do not go for me because I don’t want to be CEO of inner fire find someone who can do this you know I’m sure there’s an instructor who’s really good who you can Elevate um and you also need to stop attacking people who are telling the truth which they do to me and to other people continually they try to threaten and bully people away from the truth and that’s just a really bad um tactic okay so if somebody right now see some thumbnail that there’s there might be might be something wrong with the wink of method and he’s concerned so I would like to ask you is doing breath work sitting on or laying down on the floor is safe usually yeah I think that that in general Wim Hof method is safe but again this is also goes where the messaging is so important it is also bad for some people like some people have more panic attacks I can trigger um tinnitus which is the ringing in your ears it can trigger um anything where your sympathetic nervous system is over hyped it can make anxiety worse it can make depression worse so I think they need to instead of presenting it as like a Panacea something that works for everything they need to say this method might be good for you and here are some potential problems and if you have that problem try a different method like and I think that’s an important message I would say in general though um the incidence of people having heart attacks or Strokes from the Wim Hof method are are quite low um you know there are cases of heart attacks and strokes from the Wim Hof method but it’s not a regular occurrence it’s it’s certainly within the realm of millions of people are trying it and it’s it’s sort of okay okay and you also are interested in other others other breathworks right so would you recommend any other breath work yeah I would look at booteko um which is another method which is sort of the opposite of Wim Hof method Wim Hof method is hyperventilation buteco is more like nasal breathing and slow if wimoff method doesn’t work for you try buteko like no there’s you know try lots of different things like don’t look at like one method as the answer because I don’t think buteco is the answer either I think you need it’s a conversation for with your nervous system and the practices that are out there you realize that these are tools in a very large toolbox great great so we are running out of time I wrote to you that in the end there is the part of the podcast when I ask the question that is always the same have you read this part and are you ready for this no I I for totally forgot what you were talking about so shoot okay so this the name of this segment is every failure is a lesson and it’s about promoting failures as something good something that makes you grow so I would like to ask you what was your biggest failure of the last year and what have you learned because of it I mean my biggest failure was taking on this particular thing right is and like alienating my whole audience like that was my biggest failure it was also my biggest success uh I I I really like that question um because I learn a lot from failure I I feel like being an investigative journalist is mostly about failure because you you you check out leads that don’t pan out uh all the time and um and the truth is that you just have to keep on failing and experimenting and reiterating and changing if you want to get better uh so I mean my biggest failure in a way is also my biggest success is that my biggest failure is like oh my God I endorsed whim off and maybe there were problems with that and and and uh and that failure is also is also the success of notifying people that that there are ways to correct this yeah because have you got famous because of this book or have you been famous before that well I mean no the book was was huge the book was a New York Times bestseller so it was a very big book for me but I’ve written five books uh yeah

oh good yeah so that was book was like eight years before uh um this book and I have a totally fine career outside of Wim Hof in fact if I never had to do another video on Wim Hof I would be excited uh I would be brilliant for me I would love that the thing is though because that book was so popular everyone comes to me for Wim Hall so I feel like I’m an actor who’s been Typecast for a role like Scott’s the ice bath guy and I’m like no I’m not I’m like the cult guy in the climate change guy like I do tons of organ I’m a world expert on organ trafficking like my career is fine uh it’s just that most people know me because of of this book so you know in some ways success is also a failure is that they once you get known for something um people just want more of that they want me to write more that they want me to write the sauna book like next you know that sort of thing

I’m waiting uh for the book about napping and in the end I would like to ask you about uh where people can find you online if they want to learn something more about the topics we discussed today yeah so I have another I have a podcast um that’s called Scott Kearney investigates it’s on Spotify uh Apple all the places also my YouTube channel Scott SG Carney this is Scott Carney something or I don’t I forget what I call I keep on changing its name um check out both those I also have a website for all of my books all of the other information about me um uh scottcarney.com and just about all of the social media sites I somehow managed to grab the handle SG Carney on all of the places yeah I will find those and I will leave them down below for sure thank you very much for attending this podcast uh it was my first interview in English so uh I’m glad you did great you did great thanks thanks awesome thank you so much yeah thank you and hopefully see you some days uh in the future is

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